Topic Discussion 5: Back to Business?

futuregenious · Web Guru

Topic Discussion 5: Back to Business?

JukeBox · Member

RE: Back to Business?

shalaka · Senior Member

i cant say much here coz i noe nothin abt commerce. ppl tell me there are more job ops in commerce....i dont believe it. science is too vast for that. there will always be more jobs coming up. in the end, what ur doin with commerce, its just workin with money, to make money. seriously. banking, accountancy... u r workin with money!! i reeli cant say much.

deadlydivs · Queen

RE: Topic Discussion 5: Back to Business?

dennisgeorge · Senior Member

An interesting topic with interesting opinions and views. I agree with the point that without science this world has no future and while commerce is an important factor for maintaing and running a nation, its the fields of science and math that ultimately determine the true power of a country. But where did it all go wrong?? why are people getting nervous and afraid to fullfill their true dreams of becoming a doctor, an aerospace engineer, a physcist or even a nuclear engineer. These once highly acclaimed fields and occupations of science are declining daily in its college graduates and workers. The answer lies within the type of edcuation that students are exposed and equipped to handle their future.

For example, lets take the world's global and economical superpower, the United States. The U.S has been and still is failing in its once "highly acclaimed public education." According to statistics, the U.S is ranked 23 in the field of math education and this puts America behind even poor and small 3rd world countries such as Hungary, Poland, etc. How in the world did this situation strike a country that boasts its cutting edge medical advancements, dominant space research and space travel(NASA), and the very land that gave birth to the modern computer and other ground breaking technological advancements? The answer is, that while students are receiving equal opportunity to a free edcuation system, they are not receiving the best education.

Low income families and minority groups(African Americans, Mexicans) which make up for more than half of the population are not getting the chance to send their kids to schools which provide the right atmosphere for them to get an interest and and pursue in education. But the amusing thing is that just half an hour of travel away from these poor and destitute areas(inner city schools) will bring you to bright, rich and sprawling suburban areas where mostly middle class and the higher class people live. As expected, the schools in this area are the top noche, state of the art gyms, excellent classrooms and teachers, auditioriums, etc. Just to further prove my point, here's a fact about the school that i attend. My school was recently ranked 2nd in the nation for having the most expensive parking lot and that does not even account for the teachers parking lot but just the students who can be see driving to school in Benz and Mercedes cars. On the other hand, just 2 miles away from the White House, an inner city school(minority group) was recently uncovered in a Television Interview to have leaking roofs, torn walls, broken sewage system, unrepaired bathrooms, and so on where students have to attend school everyday.

This wide demarcation in the education system has got so worse that even Bill Gates is terrified for the future of America. Time Magazine in its recent publication has declared America as the "Dropout Nation." With every 26 seconds, a student has dropped out from school and ended their education

Even if students do stay in schools and continue their education, many are still not prepared for what they have to undertake in college. In rural areas of the U.S, a student in class 10 is reading and writng at the level of a student in class 6. A class valedcitorian from a rural school , with the highest GPA in her class, now majoring in Biology in college has discovered that her high school teachers did not teach her how to use a simple microscope. America is failing daily in its task to promote a future workforce that is ready for work and occupation.

This is the main reason for why america is declining in not only the field of science but the general field of education itself. People attending colleges these days are trending to move to commerce because it seems as the easier and more successful path to them. Except for the Ivy Leauge Universities, private universities, and other top Public Universities, students are showing a great and major migration from majoring in a science field to business and computer fields.

There are still many like myself who continue to work and strive in the path of science, math and technological fields , with a neverending hope that this "education shame of America" will change.

For more info on this subject visit www.standup.org

The J Factor · Member

they r interdependent

shalaka · Senior Member

RE: Topic Discussion 5: Back to Business?

ameen_sep22 · Guru

feels gud to be bak aint it? fellas

sumreally looonng disscussions goin on out here huh?

bak to buisness?..wndr whos side apna varu nis on now dat he is in commerce??...wel here is wat i think

nowadays all we ppl care abt is earnin fast bucks..and wat better a way dan to jus take commerce in ur 11th...finish skool..sstudy for 3 years doin BCOM..and i suppoz dats it...(as far as i kno plz do correct me if im wrng) bang on..u get a job if ur gud engh...and worka bit hard...u already climbin a huge ladder of succes...but we keep forgettin sumthin...da same ladder is climb by abt anoder lakhs of enthusiastic youngsters like us...is it gud engh?

science is a gud subject altogether...it givz us sum understandin in life...yupz divz i thnk science rokz too...it is jus wat many ppl like to do...u ask a small child what wud u like to becum wen u r big...i don think ane1 wud say i want to ecum a charterd accountant or an auditor etc etc..da first thing which pops up in da mind is i wanna becum a doctor..or mayb a pilot (yeah sumtimz a few crazy but wonderfull ideas like becumin sachin tendulkar cum up to but are a jus to wierd) i mean to say is da diffrence between dese to entirely diffrent and diverse streams starts frm us...and in da end ends wid us too....like dare is dis general perception dat all da kool ppl go to commerce and da nerdos are born to be in science streams and hafta struggle all thru deyr lives. we gotta stop diffrentiatin between da two streams coz it jus startd confusin ppl ..especially dose in 10th..coz we hafta concentrate on our boards adn studies ..personal matters and thnk abt our future. dare are always 2 sides to a coin. its da way u luk at life

it reminds me of dat water in da glass thingi..half full or half empty...wat i thnk is both dese streams are extremely imp and shud be lukd at wid equal respect]

hope i made a point or two out dare

Azure · Veteran Member

First off, I hate when people look at commerce through such naive views. Commerce is a lot more than just handling money. And money's no puny thing that you can ignore. Heck, you practically can't live without it.

Anyway, if commerce for some people is "just money" then what's science? Science is "just some vector math, equations, and memorized biological discourses". You can never know completely what a subject is about. I bet Bill Gates doesn't even know half of computer science. So how on the planet can you sum up commerce as "just money".

Commerce is awesome. Science is awesome too. It just depends on what you like. If you don't like commerce, go to science. If you don't like science, go for humanities. If you don't like that too, then get the heck out of school and start real-life business right away. You see them all over the place today.

Look at Bill Gates himself. He isn't even a college graduate! He hated commerce when he took it in college, and he had no plans for science because of its complexity. So what did he do? Got right out of school and started Microsoft.

Here's the real thing: The world can't work with only science nerdies, nor can it work only with commerce geeks, nor can it work only with social scientists, nor can it work only with priests, nor can it run with only [put any profession here]. You absolutely and unconditionally need all types of people in the world.

As for choosing between commerce and science, it's what it purely is: a choice. Nothing beyond that. Guess what, choosing science or commerce in school is absolutely such a puny thing in the bigger scheme of things that it'd hardly make a difference.

The only thing that has mattered, and will matter, is simple: Whether you are happy, or not. And that's the end of the story.

dennisgeorge · Senior Member

So True!!

The J Factor · Member

of course bill gates doesn't know about half of computer science bcos he never completed his university studies.Remember that he is a Harvard dropout and also remember that he is a self made rich guy.Actually bill is a mixture of how science and commerce can be both mixed to ones advantage instead of separately following both.

smilypranami · Veteran Member

hey guyz,

i agree wid azure.there is so much depth in commerce.science n commerce are 2 diff. things dat really cannot b compared.it mainly depends upon wat u wanna do in life n how much interest in dat stream u hve.also if u will u can bcum one of d most powerful n d richest person whether be it science or commerce.n its nt like like u get outta skool n den do bcom work a little hard n den earn money,ameen.half of d rickshaw drivers in india hve done bcom.neither of dem are easy.....so think about it whether ppl are goin into commerce just for money or itz their dream 2 pursue dat.............

Azure · Veteran Member

I'd like to point out a couple more things. The first is that humanities is actually the oldest subject ever. Humanities is language, philosophy, psychology, history, etc. Therefore, it follows logically that, man has survived without science but not without humanities. Man is first a social animal, then an inventive animal. Without language, can you even imagine something as simple as Da Vinci's inventions making sense? Language and philosophy are indespensable and something humanity can never ever survive without.

For example, let's say that you want to transport some very important chemicals from Japan to India. Unless you knew their language, their culture (i.e. etiquette, since you don't want to be shot for displaying rudeness), and of course their exact location (i.e. maps), you'll never be able to get there, let alone the precious chemicals. How can you imagine even the word science coming in without language and philosophy?

Secondly, if you take a real close look at the present scenario in the world of IT and "modern computing", then it is very clear that IT-based/enabled services are rapidly taking over manpower. Ten years ago, you'd need at least 10 salesmen walking up and down shopping mall stalls checking whether anyone's trying to rob stuff. Now, you just need one guy at the counter with a bunch of cameras in different locations reporting to his central computer. And it's easier for that one guy too.

For another example, simply check out the world of banking. Ten years ago, you'd need 20 different people at the cash-counters for either depositing or withdrawing or some other thing. Now, all you need is four people with four computers and voila! Four guys do it quicker than the 20, the boss has much, much more profits, and customers save a lot of time too.

Hence, it clearly follows from the two examples that, IT is slowly taking over manpower-based services. And that's some bad news for normal people because they're going to have to work extremely hard to get to the top of the economic ladder. Check out schools, they need only half the manpower they'd have needed 5 years ago because now the clerks are thrown and much more efficient computers have come in.

Bill Gates in a recent essay described what he called "Futuristic Computing" wherein he says that everything in the near future will be automated -- everything from paying your electricity bills to making multi-million dollar deals. Suddenly everyone in the tech industry is attracted to that. That sounds interesting and exciting, but nope, underlying that vision is a fundamental flaw of destroying jobs. Yes, we're trying to get things done quicker and in a more efficient way, but obviously it can't come at the cost of people's lives. This idea is the best model for software corporate executives but the worst for common people like the accounting clerk in that startup.

Therefore, your job is going to be very insecure. Taking up humanities, in my opinion, is probably the best choice at this time of the decade. Humanities is something which even the most powerful supercomputer cannot imitate. It can't even understand language. It can't be expected to understand philosophical questions. Commerce is a very good option too, because humans are going to run behind money all the time unless WW3 breaks out.

And if you've read/watched some science fiction, then you know that robotic-lifestyles are already taking over in Japan and the US. And we're growing more humans here (a perfect example is the population of India which doesn't seem to stop growing unless, well, WW3 breaks out). Something's really going in the wrong direction. But that's a different topic from Science vs. Commerce altogether.

futuregenious · Web Guru

hey all,

just adding to all this, tday was the science sections v/s commerce sections football match. wish i cud sponsor it!

Anways, i am presenlty in anticipation of teachers replying to this as informed to them. Teachers, we await ur views!!

Regards

Varun

shalaka · Senior Member

haha guess who won that match? commerce!!! hahahaa just like life, ain't it? hey how come they announced the exhibitional basketball match but not da football match? i'm sure lotsa ppl wanted to watch dat... i sure did but i had tuts. BEST OF LUCK FOR EXAMS!!!!

futuregenious · Web Guru

latest news! gud news! 12th board results out! Science beats commerce! wow! wat a perfect time to have this topic. congrats to all ppl!

Regards,

Varun

shalaka · Senior Member

excuse me? i thot commerce beat science?

futuregenious · Web Guru

shalaka wrote:

excuse me? i thot commerce beat science?

SRY SRRY SRRY, I aplogise.

That was biggest typing error i cud make. was in such a hurry. Thanks Shakku!

Regards,

Varun

Azure · Veteran Member

How does "commerce beat science"? There is no fight, no war, no competition, nothing between the two. They're just like two things that can't survive without each other. Imagine a world where there are only MBAs. So you go up to an MBA and ask what they do at the bureau. Answer: zilch. Because if there isn't anything to manage, what's their purpose? Au contraire, it'd be a menace if there were only scientists. Remember the first point I raised in the debate: It's all up to your damn wish.

I don't see this issue going beyond anything than daft disagreement. Time for a new topic.

-- Edited by Azure at 10:18, 2006-05-26

dennisgeorge · Senior Member

well in an ironic turn of events, commerce has somehow managed to overturn science. But the point is, science has always come before the art of trade and money management. When man first came to earth, he used the science of firemaking to provide a means of heat and cooking food. Its the science of utilizing availabe sources in a way that benefits humanity that still keeps society moving forward. While there is ample truth exemplified in azeur's point of view, of a balance between science and commerce, I believe its the logic of scientific thinking that promotes humanity forward

-- Edited by dennisgeorge at 21:02, 2006-05-26

shalaka · Senior Member

DONT CALL ME SHAKKU!!!! by sayin commerce beat science we mean that the commerce results were better than science. god varun pls don make such huge typos.

The J Factor · Member

hi everybody once again,

i guess its sort of a time line.i mean in the medieval times so much preference was given to arts and music to such an extent that copernicus and galileo were considered as fools!then science came in and industrial revolution began,so i guess now it is commerce's show time!

i really think we had enough of this ,i think we should chat about more stuff that relates to all of us like the reservation crisis,the world cup(for all footie fans)..things like that.science,commerce or humanities is ones choice ,each person will have a different viewpoint and this debate will go on and on,i dont think it can ever end.its like those boys vs girls things we had when we just entered middle school.we just have to admit it is diverse and u can never get the end of it whereas if u talk about the reservation thing,thats more important for especially those doing their higher schooling now like myself and varun,bcos if we dont end it now its gonna become a big burden for us later on.

in the end i just wanna quote arindham choudary,he is a world famous economist.he says"if a person is assured of his job then why should he care about the progress of the company"

it was some thing like that.what i mean to say is that ,if this reservation does get implented,then in a short period of time ,the prestigious iits and iims will become another place like our govt. schools.In these places ,the teachers r assured of their jobs,so y should they work hard unless they really want to?this might be the mindset of those students who get on reservation,but however i do agree reservation is very important because it helps in making the country devoloped on all frontiers.it is one thing which we have to get it right

the problem with the media is they r giving only the anti reservation side.i would really like to hear from the pro reservation side as well.

take care and please change the topic,

bye

jjjj

Azure · Veteran Member

Honestly now, even though I'm a bit of a hardened skeptic, how do you plan to make a debate for the reservation quota crap even a post on the net? Indian governors will never care about what the public screams, so why bother wrestling your vocal cords for those nuts?

Debate probably has no point unless it's some kind of real authority participating. Without that, it's just pointless disagreements and a big waste of time. For example, would we care to debate on whether the USA should step out of Iraq? No, it's just pointless and Bush wouldn't care. We should only have debates concerning us and forget about the rest of the world and leave them to mess up their own damn lives. Simple.

smilypranami · Veteran Member

varun ,

time fer a NEW TOPIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

futuregenious · Web Guru

WEBMASTERS VERDICT

Now you'll on WhatsUpISM.com forums might be used to reading a sorry from me every time I have to give a verdict because it is always delayed. And yet again, it is DELAYED! But this time I was actually not there to be viewing the comments and posts as I was stuck up in India(all of you are aware of that!). This time my verdict comes out on a more personal note.

I think the topic was a good topic, where I was expecting more people to participate, especially students from 11th and 12th. Didn't get that good a response even though we had newsletter sent for a topic the very first time. Also, I guess you'll should know this because all of you'll are now very much into whats happening at WUISM. Letters were given to selected teachers of the school(8 senior teachers) from the science and the commerce departments of the school. Now, the depressing aspect of the whole thing is, not one of the 8 actually actually visited the site, leave alone posting. There are times when you are unable to have good access to the net, but you can always inform us or write a short comment. Well, that is old stuff now and we cannot do much about it. You people are posting and I feel thats ROCKIN!

The idea of the topic came from another futuregenious(lol!) Uren Dhanani, who is the man behind www.uren.blogspot.com a.k.a jukebox. I frankly did not do much research on this, because I feel it is more of a general topic, rather than something which people don't know about. Uren, I loved your post, where you have highlighted a part of the article from the magazine. It is more than evident after reading the post that you still love science the way it is despite all the glory in commerce. I really adore this sentence of yours and hereby quote it - "One of the things I've observed is that these days a lot of people associate success with $ucce$$ ".

What probably I can think after reading that post is that after 20 years, we'll have thousands and thousands of stunning business firms, BUT, they will all face the problem of good enough reliable servers & systems to manage their databases. But that is also too extreme because lovers like you, Uren, will not let that happen! Countries like China, where 94%(self-made figure) of the electronic equipments are made, will be the superpowers. So is it that the world needs to wake up and realise the importance on Science. Well, I can't say now. Probably only after I have read more posts! Well Shalaka, I think you were pretty right in judging that science has jobs equal to that of commerce. Its just that, as Uren writes, that commrce UNDOUBTEDLY has more money. And it too has people with interest, but not too many. I cannot make a fair judgement here in Oman because I am not any Survey Authority's Chief. fruitcaky topics? Lol.

I completely agree with you Divya, Science and Commerce go hand in hand. Two sides of a coin. For those of you who don't like science but just mug up stuff, FORGET IT, BECAUSE YOU CANNOT MUG UP SCIENCE THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER AND ONE DAY YOU'LL BE FORCED TO QUIT IT! And who will force you'll, yourself.

Now I was very happy to know I got such a good response from a person settled in North Carolina, who has seen a different world other than ours. He is our very own, and my lovely pal, Dennis. At the time when we were waiting for Lidia Dennis's post, this Dennis comes and gives his comments. Good to see you posting. You combined the issues of students dropping out and Science vs Commerce. Well the situation of America is still very different from that of India. And why should it not be? As I stated earlier, I predict the future superpower of the world will be one who can get their population "hungry" for education and thein provide it to them and then, most importantly, maintain a balance between Science and Commerce and other arts.

I was in India few days back and was busy hunting for a college for my cousin sister, who is also a new member of our forum. And in this process of research, I found out that the cut-offs for B-schools have been shooting up, and Science declining(well not marginally but fractonally). But I still feel India is very far from being a science Guru scarce nation. IIT Hai Na! Wow! Jithin, I thought your your every word had the sense I am trying to convey. Nothing else to say in regard to your ost, because you have said it all in a few lines.

Just as I was expecting. Shalaka, thanks for the question so that I can justify my reason for taking science. It is an absolutely 100% perfect thing to say that Science has become extremely tough and its a lot of struggle even ten years down the line. And that's why many people have left science. But I'm not running away anywhere even though I have taken commerce. Here you go: I agree I will have to face the same struggle. And eventually I'll end up being paid anything less than a commerce guy would. But the only reason behind this logical decision is that, I do not know about commerce, whether it is interesting or boring. I am venturing into something which is new and (maybe) has wider scope. So at this point one cannot say whether they like commerce or not, because it is completely new. And a person will not find interest in Commerce and will continue to love science until he does not jump into commerce himself and see how it is. And the other major factor behind this is that, the Indian Board system says, that 11th and 12th are more like the trial years for our future course, but at the same time, our admission in India is completely on the basis of our 12th marks. This is a little strange a situation and a conflict between the school and college education.

Its a completely personal decision as Ameen says and thats right. Let not impressions and talks be the decisive feature behind our decisions. Azure I liked your views, but I wasn't completely satisfied when you said,"If you don't like science or commerce, go to humanities". Lets start giving equal weightage to all the three and stop all the discriminations we do to Arts. The problem is with us, and we blame others for thinking of Humanities as 3rd options. We have to change our mindset.

Pranami, the BCom and rickshaw drivers combination was a bit too mean. Lets be positive about the whole thing always. Azure, I think you have highlighted many raw but very important facts in that post of yours. GOOD!

The football match and school results were just a sort of joke. Take it lightly because even the results have no connection with the general lot of students deciding their future. Dennis, you bringing out the nature of science and commerce was indeed pleasant to read. J Factor, Reservations? Yes sir!

No summing up. Because I'm no one to be summing it up or making a verdict. Its the mindset of the general students and parents all around the world. And its for them to decide. The future is ours!

Regards,

Varun Arora

Webmaster & Manager - www.whatsupism.com